Could you strip yourself of all your worldly possessions for a chance at eternal life? This provocative question is at the core of an illuminating conversation with our esteemed guests, Father Andrew Hamilton and Father Christopher Pujol. Together, we journey through the profound narrative of the rich young man who asked Jesus about his path to eternal life. We delve into the challenges of detachment from material wealth and the struggle to find true security. We reflect on the stark reality that merely being a virtuous person isn't enough to establish a meaningful connection with God.
We discuss the pursuit of perfection through the practice of faith, acknowledging the impossibility of human perfection but the vital importance of striving towards it. This episode serves as a stirring reminder of our responsibility to walk the talk and continually seek God's grace. So, join us in this enlightening exploration of faith, devotion, and the trials of earthly detachment, right here on the Catholic Accent podcast.
Could you strip yourself of all your worldly possessions for a chance at eternal life? This provocative question is at the core of an illuminating conversation with our esteemed guests, Father Andrew Hamilton and Father Christopher Pujol. Together, we journey through the profound narrative of the rich young man who asked Jesus about his path to eternal life. We delve into the challenges of detachment from material wealth and the struggle to find true security. We reflect on the stark reality that merely being a virtuous person isn't enough to establish a meaningful connection with God.
We discuss the pursuit of perfection through the practice of faith, acknowledging the impossibility of human perfection but the vital importance of striving towards it. This episode serves as a stirring reminder of our responsibility to walk the talk and continually seek God's grace. So, join us in this enlightening exploration of faith, devotion, and the trials of earthly detachment, right here on the Catholic Accent podcast.
Jordan:
You're listening to the Catholic Accent Podcast. In this podcast, we discuss the acts and miracles that Jesus performed that stunned his disciples. I'm Jordan Waiko, along with Father Andrew Hamilton and Father Christopher Pujol. Today's topic is the Rich man. Gentlemen, Gentlemen, To be back. Likewise, a rich young man approaches Jesus and asks him how to get into heaven. Why don't you tell me? How does Jesus respond?
Fr. Andrew:
Well, the rich young man says as well, you know that I've kept the commandments, I've been doing these things, that you say that the law says from the Jewish law what more must I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus gives him a simple answer Keep the commandments.
Fr. Chris:
Keep the commandments, love God and love your neighbor.
Fr. Andrew:
And one more Go sell all your possessions and give it to the poor.
Fr. Chris:
That's the really really tough one that puts everything to a halt.
Jordan:
So what does the young man do?
Fr. Chris:
Before we get that far, I think it's fun just to stop and think about like a young guy. So this man, this time to be a young man, he would have been probably late teens and anybody under 40.
Jordan:
You think?
Fr. Andrew:
But like imagine.
Jordan:
They're all late teens. These are rich men.
Fr. Chris:
But, like you know, you think about young people today and they're filled with ambition. They're filled with excitement and drive. What's my life going to look like? And we have great people who are doing good things. And this man here is saying that I've fulfilled the commandments and I'm living my life the best way I can. And in his mind he thought that that's enough. And so when he approaches Jesus, it's almost that he's expecting Jesus to say you're in buddy, you've done it right.
Fr. Andrew:
You're doing good. Well done, my good, faithful servant.
Fr. Chris:
And instead he's like well, that's good, You're keeping the commandments I'm glad you should be doing that, but now get rid of everything you have.
Fr. Andrew:
That would be difficult. As a young person, for example, what's one thing that we look to our possessions for?
Jordan:
Like, would you give up your PlayStation security?
Fr. Chris:
I don't have one.
Jordan:
I thought you did, I don't either.
Fr. Andrew:
So it's already been given up, boom.
Fr. Chris:
See, we listened.
Fr. Andrew:
But we look for security in things a lot of the times.
Fr. Andrew:
I think, that people experience this. We're built with this mindset that we have to have a big 401k or we have to have all these things. Because what happens whenever we retire? What happens when we're not having income coming in? Well, we need to rely upon something, and if we put too much security in things rather than in God, we're really, in a way, breaking the commandment or worshipping something other than God. It's a false idol. The root of all evil is what? The love of money? Not money necessarily itself, but being inordinately attached to To money well, do you okay?
Jordan:
So do you think Jesus is asking too much of the young man? You know? Would we still consider this guy a good person? You know he's following the commandments, but now Jesus is asking him to do something more.
Fr. Chris:
Well, see, this falls into so often today. We hear people say well, I don't go to church, but I'm a good person. Or I don't need to go to mass, or I don't need to confess my sins to priests, but I'm a good person. Well, sure, you very well might be a good person, but being a good person doesn't mean that you have God, a relationship with God or relationship with Christ. Being a good person is the most minimal thing that we're called to in our human nature is to be a moral People treating each other with respect and dignity.
Fr. Andrew:
That's a given to others, as you would have done unto yeah that's the baseline.
Fr. Chris:
So just because you're a good person Doesn't mean that we're fulfilling what God's asking of us, and so not everyone is asked by God to give everything away. But in the history of the church we see st Francis, who Literally stripped himself in front of the mayor of Assisi and in front of his father and gave up everything.
Fr. Andrew:
I don't think it's giving away and this is like my point that I would make. It's not being Attached to things that you can't let go of right.
Fr. Andrew:
Yeah, so somebody came up to me and asked me for my ring on the street and they were dying and they needed a few hundred dollars. And I'm like no, if this is mine, I got to keep this. I can't give this up to you. I'm in, I'm wrongly attached to this item and that's harmful because it's something that I now I'm starting to Worship or have placed in my life above others and above God.
Fr. Chris:
And what if they?
Jordan:
ask you for the ring, but instead you gave them money, you gave them something else. It wasn't the ring, so you're still attached.
Fr. Andrew:
Well are still doing that act of giving them some right, at least like you're actually providing for that need, like in that.
Jordan:
But would it still be considered attached attachment to that, if I need this thing.
Fr. Andrew:
If I need to give up this thing to get into Heaven, then yeah, I should be able to hear that's an ulterior motive.
Jordan:
So like are you doing it for selfish reasons?
Fr. Andrew:
Well, one could. One starts maybe with selfish reasons. Right, do unto others as you yourself would have done unto you. I don't want to punch you in the face because I don't want to be punched, but that keeps us on any equal ground. You know right. And then I have to move past that. I don't want to punch Jordan face because he's a nice guy, you know and then we move up, for that's not enough, but it's not sometimes in a little bit of a selfish way, which even from from our first standpoint.
Fr. Andrew:
Why would I want to follow God? Well, I don't want to go to hell, right? I? Want to go to heaven and and get good things. That's not a terrible starting point if one comes to that. But you have to move past that and not do it for the fear of hell or for gain, but rather to actually love the person of God. That's where we move to in the spiritual life.
Fr. Chris:
Yeah, that's fair and that's why this passage is so hard to hear. Sometimes, when you hear Jesus say that it's easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the rich one to enter the kingdom of God, it's not Jesus saying that if you're rich you're evil. That's not it. But again it goes back to that attachment and it goes to show us and remind us which I think so often we have to remember is that None of us know that we're going directly to heaven.
Fr. Chris:
The church does not teach that you have three options heaven, purgatory or hell. And so often we just say you're a nice person, you're going to heaven. But in reality it's our relationship that we have to take the initiative to seek the goodness of God and In seeking we're able to rid ourselves of those things that keep us separated or farther away from him Now, the saying that you mentioned, father Chris it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle Than for one who is richer to enter the kingdom of God Now that should make us all.
Jordan:
Stop right that right, if any. We should be stunned.
Fr. Chris:
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Jordan:
I mean first of all this massive yeah not to be, you know, excuse the pun, but like what's the point?
Fr. Chris:
oh, jordan, that's a. That's a good joke.
Fr. Andrew:
Should.
Jordan:
I yeah give it Perfect any, any yeah, what's the point and how do you what? What do you think the disciples Did when, when this happened, like the shock of that saying and you know them, seeing this young man Saying that he's following the teachings, but do something more.
Fr. Andrew:
I think, just speaking in a contemporary context I was raised with the mindset that the more money you make, the more success you have, the more respected you are, and I think that that's such a harmful way to look at life and the way that we should live we're. There's another story about wealth and what a man does with it, and what Jesus says is use wealth to make Friends. That's really the important part of what you use your wealth for, because remember Lazarus and the poor man that comes to his door. Well, I'm sorry, lazarus and the rich man, the rich man who doesn't give to Lazarus, the poor man comes to his door.
Fr. Andrew:
Well, what he's told in heaven essentially is you didn't actually make friends with your wealth, and now Lazarus cannot help you, nobody else can help you, and that's what we're called to do, which is to share the things that we've been given by God. Only by his grace and power have we been able to come into possession of them. So, as for the service of others, for the service of his church and his mission in this world and that's one of the tricky things about wealth, as it can come to possess you, and it can be a really difficult thing Over time whenever you overuse it to then rid yourself from yeah we attach this baggage to us.
Fr. Andrew:
There was this great image I saw the other day, which is a, a traveler that had a Stick across his back and he had bags on either side and its possessions, or maybe another sin or like whatever else. It would be in the doorways across, but it's not big enough to be able to fit with all the bags on each side. You would have to let them go and then enter through the cross in Purgatory's like that, in which that we have to let go of this baggage that's dragging us down so that the Lord can lift us up. And sometimes for people that can be Lust, greed, envy, you name it all your seven deadly sins.
Jordan:
So the gospel tells us that it's you know that the man had many possessions, but it could be that Jesus asked him to give up not a literal possession, but just he's by many things.
Fr. Andrew:
Yeah, that way yeah for sure.
Jordan:
So how could this gospel passage be a response to the message of prosperity gospel preached by, you know, many televangelists and non-denominational preachers? Does, as you were saying, wealth in this life really mean that you're favored by God or Get into hell?
Fr. Andrew:
Well, Jesus says come follow me. And then where does he go? To the cross, and he dies poor. So I don't think necessarily, whenever he calls us, if we're doing his will, that that means it will be rich or wealthy or anything Else down the line. Like that will be spiritually rich, that's for certain. But that doesn't mean that we'll be materially wealthy in this life and all of those things don't go with us. There's this great saying that I got from a gentleman at one of my parishes that you never see a Bank truck following a hearse mm-hmm at the end of life, right. And so we don't take the riches with us. They can't be buried with us, they mean nothing in the end and you can't buy.
Fr. Chris:
God. So to say that I'm favored, highly favored, because I'm wealthy, is Totally against what is taught in the gospel and what Jesus is teaching, and I love that after this conversation happens with the rich young man, peter pipes up and he says but Jesus, we've given up everything and we followed you. What are we gonna get? And Jesus responds you followed me and now, in the new age to come, you will be seated on the thrones To judge the tribes of Israel, when the Son of man is seated on the throne. And we see in that context that by their virtue of offering everything, they inherit the kingdom of God. And so we see that in the lives of the martyrs you know, martyr from the Greek literally means to witness, and by the shedding of their blood and the witness of their lives they're showing by giving everything, they gain everything.
Fr. Andrew:
I want to tell a quick story about not seeing the true goodness of how to use wealth at the beginning. So one of the great, hopefully canonized saint into the future, but now blessed, blessed, pierre Giorgio Frasati. He lived in Turin. His father, alfredo Frasati, was very wealthy. He ran a large newspaper company and his father always resented his son for giving away everything to the poor in Turin. Every time he'd get a new suit, jacket, he'd go and he'd give it to some poor person on the street, and then he'd have to ask his dad for more things and so forth, and his dad was enraged by it because his mindset was you have to secure the wealth and make money and make sure that the family is well provided for and all these other things, and that's not the way Pierre Giorgio Frasati saw it. So his father never saw the good that Pierre Giorgio was doing until after Pierre Giorgio died young, from, I believe, tuberculosis.
Fr. Andrew:
Coming out of his front door, alfredo Frasati, following behind the body of his son in a casket, witnessed all of the good that his son did, even being a fool in giving away his wealth. He saw all of these poor people of Turin, so much so, filled in the streets, the people were walking shoulder to shoulder. They passed his casket from his house down to the parish church where they had the funeral mass, and from that point, alfredo, his father, had a conversion and realized. Money, wealth, possessions, they all pale in comparison to making friends with your wealth, to using it for the reasons and purposes of God and seeing the great glory that his son was able to be risen to or was raised in dignity by all these poor people who he helped throughout his life.
Fr. Chris:
So, Father, could we say that? You know, Pierre Giorgio somehow did this for his own merits to enter heaven.
Fr. Andrew:
He didn't just do it to get into heaven but for the good of the other. But that doesn't mean that in this life that we as Catholics believe if we do enough good works and we make the scale go up, therefore we won't go down. We need God's grace to do anything in our lives, and that goes back to the point of the wealth that we have as a gift given to us as stewards in this life, not that we completely own it and possess it and consume it and can use it for anything that we want. And so we as Catholics really believe that with God's grace, then we do good works Absolutely, and that formula together then leads towards salvation, but only predicated, only started on the fact that God has given us the grace to then go forward and do good works for us and we have to cooperate with it.
Jordan:
Right. So why are good works important for Catholics?
Fr. Chris:
Oh, they're critical because, you know, just like we have faith and we have reason, and just like we have scripture and we have the tradition of the church, we have to have the grace of God that's given to us right and asked for. But we also can't just sit by and let people starve on the streets. We can't sit by and not educate people who need taught. We have to be there to work out the mission of the church. So it's not a passive church, it's very active.
Fr. Andrew:
And I think too, I'm a priest, I'm celibate, but say I was married and I had a wife and I said I love you. I could just say that and then do nothing to back up my words.
Jordan:
Right, I could talk the talk but you have to show it Like words mean nothing. You have to walk the walk.
Fr. Andrew:
Right. So if I have this great faith, it should propel me, then, to give visible outward signs of what that faith means to me, which is doing good works, which is helping and persevering in my faith. And that's what St James says in scripture, right, that, basically, faith is dead without good works.
Jordan:
So, would you say, you have to find a balance between Well they go hand in hand.
Fr. Chris:
I think our faith moves us to do good and our good work should be based on our faith. The other day I was flipping through the channels and there was this commercial and this man appeared and he's like if you love Jesus, simply pray after me. I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and you're going to go to heaven. Well, no, there's so much more to it than that. I mean just because you have faith. Yes, that's a starting point and that's critical and we must have it. But faith, the virtue of faith and the grace of faith we have to work with. And so I could say that we cook sometimes together, father and I, and I could say, oh, I make the best beef Wellington.
Jordan:
Do you? I do Pretty good, all right.
Fr. Chris:
Well, thanks for the invite If I say that, right, you're working your way up and never make it. Who's? You know there's no reality there.
Fr. Andrew:
So I mean, I think it's always like I could make a commitment that, hey, we're going out to dinner at five o'clock tonight, right, and really mean it when I say it like I'm going to get there no matter what, like I want to go to dinner with Jordan.
Fr. Chris:
And then he goes to and then life happens.
Fr. Andrew:
Right, somebody's done that before, in that sense right, you made the commitment, you definitely meant it. That's like professing faith in Jesus Christ. You mean it at the time being, but then life happens down the line and you can backslide. That's what we've been talking about throughout a lot of these podcasts, with Peter right Saying something great and then backsliding off of it and then saying something Okay and then backsliding off of it. That's kind of the teeter-totter of our life, sometimes with faith, but we hope to end in God's grace, accepting him and doing the right thing.
Fr. Chris:
It really is. You know, kind of cliche to say, but that's why we say we're practicing the faith.
Fr. Andrew:
You know, like a doctor practices medicine we're never going to get perfected.
Fr. Chris:
Never perfected. Only Christ is perfection, and our hope is that through our faith and our good works, that in heaven we will see that perfection come to fruition.
Fr. Andrew:
And the Blessed Virgin.
Fr. Chris:
Mary and the Blessed Virgin Mary Shout out mom.
Jordan:
Thanks for listening to the Catholic accent podcast. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe to our show.